the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 License.
the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 License.
A New Propose for Prehistoric Tritonis Lake’s Location based on Apollonius of Rhodes’ description
Abstract. The Argonauts’ trip along the northern limit of the Libyan Desert, from Syrtis Gulf to Tritonis Lake, is described by Apollonius Rhodes’ text ‘Argonautica’. The Argonauts sailed in this lake and located a narrow passage through which they exit to the Mediterranean’s coast. In this work, we followed the ancient text carefully, step by step, in order to find the ‘unknown’ location of pre-historic Tritonis Lake. All the steps of the trip were tested trans-scientifically and found correct in many aspects. Today’s many wadis, sabkhas and oasis, which cover the northern part of the Libyan Desert, are the remnants of numerous older rivers or lakes existing there in the 13th century BC, when the Argonautic Campaign happened. The current lakes of the Siwa Oasis were part of the Tritonis Lake, which was extended to the east and covered a large part of today’s Qattara Depression. Using modern technology, we found the narrow water passage which led the Argonauts from the Tritonis Lake to the Mediterranean Sea, near El Alamein’s coast. From there, Argo sailed eastwards parallel to the African coast till a promontory, according to Apollonius. This is the Abu Qir Cape in the Canopis Nile Delta. From there, the ship reached eastern Crete, since the sailors had previously seen the mountains of Karpathos Island, as Apollonius notes.
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RC1: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Tom Beer, 03 Jul 2023
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The comment was uploaded in the form of a supplement: https://hgss.copernicus.org/preprints/hgss-2022-15/hgss-2022-15-RC1-supplement.pdf
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AC1: 'Reply on RC1', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 05 Jul 2023
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The comment was uploaded in the form of a supplement: https://hgss.copernicus.org/preprints/hgss-2022-15/hgss-2022-15-AC1-supplement.pdf
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RC2: 'Reply on AC1', Tom Beer, 09 Jul 2023
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I urge the authors to carefully re-read their manuscript. Of course Figure 6 is mentioned in the text. The problem is that the figure numbering jumps from Figure 5 to Figure 7. There is no Figure 6.
As to the other responses I am not sure whether it is a linguistic issue but we seem to disagree on the nature and the amount of evidence required to be able to claim that something is proved.
In the English legal system used in Australia there are two standards of proof. In criminal cases it is proof beyond reasonable doubt. In civil cases it is proof on the balance of probabilities.
I would claim that for scientific works the standard of proof should be that of beyond reasonable doubt. Thus even though the paper is convincing, it fails to eliminate all other possibilities and thus cannot be considered to meet the criterion of proof beyond reasonable doubt. It is the reason that I suggest not using the word 'proved'.
Tom Beer
Melbourne, Australia.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-RC2 -
AC2: 'Reply on RC2', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 10 Jul 2023
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The comment was uploaded in the form of a supplement: https://hgss.copernicus.org/preprints/hgss-2022-15/hgss-2022-15-AC2-supplement.pdf
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RC3: 'Reply on AC2', Tom Beer, 12 Jul 2023
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Apologies. I think that I missed the figure caption on page 20 because I assumed that the caption on page 19 applied to both figures.
Tom Beer
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-RC3 -
AC3: 'Reply on RC3', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 12 Jul 2023
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Dear Professor Beer
Thank you for your remarks. In the next draft of outr text this change will be visible and highlighted along with all the others.
On behalf of the authors
Dr Konstantinos Kalachanis
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-AC3 -
AC4: 'Reply on RC3', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 06 Aug 2023
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The comment was uploaded in the form of a supplement: https://hgss.copernicus.org/preprints/hgss-2022-15/hgss-2022-15-AC4-supplement.pdf
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AC3: 'Reply on RC3', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 12 Jul 2023
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RC3: 'Reply on AC2', Tom Beer, 12 Jul 2023
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AC2: 'Reply on RC2', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 10 Jul 2023
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RC2: 'Reply on AC1', Tom Beer, 09 Jul 2023
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AC1: 'Reply on RC1', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 05 Jul 2023
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CC1: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Richard Cathcart, 15 Aug 2023
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This is a fascinating historical report. However, I suggest a native English language user perfect its statements for more clarity.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-CC1 -
AC5: 'Reply on CC1', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 16 Aug 2023
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Dear Professor Richard Cathcart,
Thank you for your kindness to read our paper.
Your remarks about the language issues have been taken into account from our team and will be included in the revised version of our paper. The wonderful book about the chotts in North Africa you had the kindness to mention illuminate the horizon of our research even further and it will be included in our expanded bibliography.
Sincerely yours
Prof. Stavros Papamarinopoulos
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-AC5
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AC5: 'Reply on CC1', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 16 Aug 2023
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CC2: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Niki Evelpidou, 31 Aug 2023
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Please refer to the comment CC3.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-CC2 -
CC3: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Niki Evelpidou, 31 Aug 2023
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Correct repetition:
I have read carefully the paper and, believe it is a very promising work worth publishing. This study is carefully conducted in respect of literature study and the combination of the available published information. Furthermore, this study is very well written and concise.
A general comment to upgrade this interesting study is the production of simple maps for every place names/region mentioned in the manuscript.
Please advise the comments in the manuscript.
Overall, my suggestion is that the paper should be accepted with minor revisions.
Line specific comments:
Figure 1: It is proposed higher quality maps.
Line 56, 310, 334, 349, 392, 449, 546, 547, 548 references should be mentioned at the corresponding “references” part.
Figure 2: This figure needs upgrade. Higher resolution.
Figure 3: This figure needs upgrade as mentioned before. The b part needs translation in English as the x,y axis is in Greek.
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AC6: 'Reply on CC3', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 01 Sep 2023
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Dear Prof. N. Evelpidou
On behalf of our research team i would like to thank you for your comments and remarks about our paper.
In the updated version οf the paper that will be submitted to the journal we will make sure that all your remarks have been included.
Sincerely yours
Dr Konstantinos Kalachanis
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-AC6
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AC6: 'Reply on CC3', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 01 Sep 2023
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CC4: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Richard Cathcart, 01 Sep 2023
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May I suggest a better article title--as it stands today "Propose" must be replaced by "Purpose". Even so, the title does not clearly reflected the content of the article. Since the authors use historical sources--that is, written records--the use of the term "Prehistoric" seems strange. Therefore, why not revise the title? I won't presume to do so except to note that, say, "A New Trip itinerary locating Tritonis Lake based on Apollonius of Rhondes' descriptions".
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-CC4 -
CC5: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Richard Cathcart, 02 Sep 2023
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REVIEW of Papamarinopoulos et al.
(1) A title change seems evident: it's a new "proposal" based on records so it is NOT "prehistoric".
(2) overlooked is the aspect of "sand surfing" those Argonaut boats. It is a desert-area sport in California, for example.
(3) could the exit route from Tritonis have been, in part, and overland roller-assisted portage like the one at Corinth before the canal was dug?
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-CC5 -
AC7: 'Reply on CC5', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 03 Sep 2023
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We would like to thank Prof. Richard Carhart for his suggestion and we change the title as follows:
A new trip itinerary locating Tritonis Lake and the unknown water route, north of it, which led the Argonauts back to the Aegean Sea, based, on Apollonius of Rhodes text.
Always with health,
Prof. Dr. Stavros Papamarinopoulos
Lead author
HG SS Topical Editor
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-AC7 -
CC6: 'Reply on AC7', Richard Cathcart, 03 Sep 2023
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Thank you. The new title makes it fully clear what the topic truly is.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-CC6
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CC6: 'Reply on AC7', Richard Cathcart, 03 Sep 2023
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AC8: 'Reply on CC5', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 05 Sep 2023
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The comment was uploaded in the form of a supplement: https://hgss.copernicus.org/preprints/hgss-2022-15/hgss-2022-15-AC8-supplement.pdf
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AC7: 'Reply on CC5', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 03 Sep 2023
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CC7: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Niki Evelpidou, 05 Sep 2023
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Review of Papamarinopoulos et al.
I have read carefully the paper and, believe it is a very promising work worth publishing. This study is carefully conducted in respect of literature study and the combination of the available published information. Furthermore, this study is very well written and concise.
A general comment to upgrade this interesting study is the production of simple maps for every place names/region mentioned in the manuscript.
Please advise the comments in the manuscript.
Overall, my suggestion is that the paper should be accepted with minor revisions.
Line specific comments:
Figure 1: It is proposed higher quality maps.
Line 56, 310, 334, 349, 392, 449, 546, 547, 548 references should be mentioned at the corresponding “references” part.
Figure 2: This figure needs upgrade. Higher resolution.
Figure 3: This figure needs upgrade as mentioned before. The b part needs translation in English as the x,y axis is in Greek.
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AC9: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 27 Jan 2024
reply
The comment was uploaded in the form of a supplement: https://hgss.copernicus.org/preprints/hgss-2022-15/hgss-2022-15-AC9-supplement.pdf
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AC10: 'Comment on hgss-2022-15', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 27 Jan 2024
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The comment was uploaded in the form of a supplement: https://hgss.copernicus.org/preprints/hgss-2022-15/hgss-2022-15-AC10-supplement.pdf
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RC4: 'Reply on AC10', Tom Beer, 28 Jan 2024
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Both AC9 and AC10 are identical and consist of a cover letter that mentions a re-written paper.
Perhaps the authors could upload the re-written paper.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-RC4 -
AC11: 'Reply on RC4', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 28 Jan 2024
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Dear Professor Beer
We would like to thank you for your kindness to respondand your interest.I
ndeed we have attached the updated text but the journal policy and platform does not allow the manuscript to be uploaded manually from the authors. For that reason please send us your e mail address in order to attach the updated version to you.
Please feel free to make any further comments.
Waiting for your response with your mailing address
On behalf of all the researchers
Prof. Stavros Pamamarinopoulos, University of Patras, Greece Ass. Professor Panagiota Preka-Papadema, University of Athens, Greece
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-AC11 -
RC5: 'Reply on AC11', Tom Beer, 30 Jan 2024
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Citation: https://doi.org/
10.5194/hgss-2022-15-RC5 -
CC8: 'Reply on AC11', Niki Evelpidou, 02 Feb 2024
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Dear author,
Please provide me also with the newest version of your manuscript.
email: evelpidou@geol.uoa.gr
Thank you
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-CC8
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RC5: 'Reply on AC11', Tom Beer, 30 Jan 2024
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CC9: 'Reply on RC4', Niki Evelpidou, 09 Feb 2024
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Dear authors,
Thank you for providing me your latest version of your manuscript. This version covers all my previous remarks and notes.
Thank you for sharing this work.
Overall, my suggestion is that the paper should be accepted for publication.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/hgss-2022-15-CC9
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AC11: 'Reply on RC4', Konstantinos Kalachanis, 28 Jan 2024
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RC4: 'Reply on AC10', Tom Beer, 28 Jan 2024
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